Transcript of Vlog Post: D&I Careerpath

Machine Generated Transcript (excuse the typos)

Books reference:

White Fragility

We Can't Talk about That at Work!: How to Talk about Race, Religion, Politics, and Other Polarizing Topics

Hi there. This is Cindy Lu with CHRO partners and I'm joined with Dana Beckton with Sentara healthcare. And, we're going to be doing a series, um, really sharing some careers of some top HR leaders and the lessons they learned and, and the experiences they've had to really get to the role that they're in today. So, um, Dana,

tell us a little bit about Sentara as well as your role In the organization. First of all, Cindy I want to say thank you for inviting me to share my story. Um, I really appreciate that and hope that through this conversation, your audience finds something of value. Um, Sentara health care we are located. Um, our corporate office is in Norfolk,

Virginia. We have 11 hospitals throughout the state of Virginia, as well as one hospital, um, in North Carolina in Elizabeth city, North Carolina. So as you can imagine, we have, um, hospitals that are in more inner city locations, as well as, um, we have rural hospitals, et cetera. So we're very diverse, very widespread. Um,

but we are a network really. It's been a year now that I've been here. So, and it's, it's it's home for me now. Yeah. Tell us about your role and why you do what you do. Sure. So at Sentara, um, a little over a year ago, it was the vision of some of our board members, as well as our chief HR officer,

um, that it was time for Sentara to have a chief diversity officer there wasn't acknowledgement. Um, prior to that, there was not a dedicated DNI function. Um, and I was lucky enough to be chosen after going through the, you know, the gauntlet of interviews, um, and re repeated from Philadelphia to the South to Virginia. Um, and I've been here now for just over a year.

And as I mentioned, it's been a, a learning experience. Uh, I've met a lot of very supportive, um, engaged partners in our hospital presidents and some of our other divisions, both corporate and in the hospitals that we're growing this, we're, we're learning and setting a foundation for what diversity and inclusion and equity and belonging can look like in our health system.

That's great. So now tell me a little bit about your earlier career and how you sort of Rose through the ranks, because I truly believe that, um, you can't be what you can't see, right? So the fact that you're willing to share Your story and tell people about your story, you know, it's going to inspire, uh, somebody's right to say,

I'm going to reach for that, that sort of time, no chief whatever role. Um, tell us a little bit about the early days. Sure. It's, it's very, very interesting cause I tell people all the time that my story truly lends itself to the essence of diversity and inclusion. So I was literally the case study of youth being wasted on the young.

I wanted to be an actress when I grew up everyone who knew me just knew I was going to move to New York and try to do that acting thing. Except for my parents who said over my dead body, you will go to college. Um, went to college, probably changed my major, at least five times, trying to figure out a way to sneak the theater piece in there.

Um, any eventually honestly ended up dropping out of college. I had never really found that balance of what I was looking for. Dropped out, went back home and, um, picked up some odd jobs, but knew that I needed to figure out something. Cause there was no way that I was going to be with just sit at home. So I eventually got a job being a public transit bus driver.

Okay. So in Philadelphia I tell people all the time I was the female version of Ralph Kramden right. So I was, you know, I was, I was the bus driver and it was about six months into driving that bus when I realized, Oh, that's fine. Me that piece of paper, not knocking, driving a bus. I ended up meeting my now husband who was also a bus driver,

but I knew it wasn't what was ordained for my life. I knew it wasn't me living out my purpose. So I started going back to school and I was lucky enough that I paid enough attention that first go round that a lot of my credits transferred over. I ended up transferring and going into business administration of all things. Don't ask me how theater transpired into business administration.

But I ended up going into business administration and I had a concentration in human resources. So I was driving full time, going to school part time, literally jumping off the bus in my bus driver uniform, running to class with a room full of much younger people then on, but I was still, you know, sticking with it. And by the end of my undergraduate experience,

I was literally going to school full time and going and driving full time. So I was balancing out two full time careers, if you will. Interestingly enough. And I was blessed in that the transit system, they actually had the tuition reimbursement program, so I didn't have to pay, um, they were paying for it. So you would think with them paying for that undergraduate degree,

that they would want to get their money back in some form or fashion. There was a position that was open in human resources that I applied for and they turned me down. They said they wanted someone with more experience. Now think about this. You paid for me to get my degree. Yeah. I have a concentration in HR and I went, it was a recruitment position who better to recruit bus drivers than someone who has been doing the job and knows what to look out for sure.

But that being said for them, they really saw, and this goes to the diversity aspect. They saw a bus drivers only potential was still being out on the street best I could do. Maybe it was being a street supervisor of other bus drivers, but they didn't, they didn't make that connection of the ability to be able to bridge over into the corporate aspect of it.

Isn't that crazy. And today, I mean there's technology companies like Cisco, who they don't even require a college degree anymore. So it's, it's a very interesting study and how we, so it's that unconscious bias, right? So that was the, that was a lens of unconscious bias before I even had language to be able to call it unconscious bias.

It was a value that was attributed to me based off of me being a bus driver and what they saw as my potential. Very interesting. Um, so at that point I said, well, you know what, I'm going to keep going to school if you're going to keep paying for it. So I eventually started going for my master's degree, right around mid time.

Philadelphia used to, as I mentioned, I'm from Philadelphia, Philadelphia back then, and this is the nineties, if you will, this is like around mid nineties. So give you some time frame of how long ago that was. Um, they used to have these big career fairs called operation native talent because Philadelphia is an education hub. We have a number of really great colleges and universities and they didn't want that talent to leave upon graduation.

So I took advantage of that and actually got recruited by an assurance firm for all the CHRO in the irony was it was because of my background of being a bus driver. Really interesting. Why is that? Because of their offices? Their claims offices were probably part of my early out in the suburbs. Their workforce was primarily from the suburbs. They had very few city beloved city employees.

Well, who better to know the intersections and the in and outs of Philadelphia travel than somebody who lived and drove a bus in Philadelphia. Um, now my aspiration was to move into HR and the recruiter that recruited me, you know, it was funny because when he saw me at the career fair and called me over, he asked me, what did I want to do?

And I said, I actually, I want your job. And he laughed. He said, well, here's the way you get your foot in the door. So I could have taken one of two paths. I could have sat yet. Nope, the adult. I'm not even interested in that. But instead I took the chance. I said, well,

you know what, okay, if this is the way I had to get my foot in the door, this is right and true to his word. I was only an adjuster for just under a year before HR tapped, tapped on my door and said, we want you to come to HR. And my first week in HR, I was doing open enrollment.

I was going to communications for our benefits open enrollment, right? So literally they were sending me books because there was this rule that you couldn't transfer until a year. Well, they knew they wanted me around seven months in, so they held a position open. And in the meantime, they were like steady sending me information, sending me information so that,

you know, that first week I hit the ground running, this it, I was still going to school for my masters. And previously, before I got the job with the insurance company, you know, I had the sense of feeling out of place and not belonging because again, I'm in a master's program going to class in a bus driver uniform, and everyone else had their suits,

had their briefcases. There were much, you know, for the most part, much younger. So I really didn't feel like I belong. And I'm remember the head of the program saying to me, your bus driver background is going to mean more to you ultimately than the majority of the people in this class. And I remember initially thinking, ah, he's just saying that because they don't want to lose tuition.

But when I got the job with all state, it was like, Oh, look at that. I got the job because of another diversity dimension. You know, my wasn't been typical occupation and it was something that they saw value in these solve the transferable skills that I would bring to the table from my bed by bus driver background. That's great. So I did that.

I got into HR and after about five years, I had an opportunity to go to work for a children's hospital of Philadelphia. And, um, I was there for 12 years. I Rose through the ranks from, um, working in their career development. They went through a reorganization, I transferred over to their training and development. So the bulk of my time at chop was really around their training and development,

doing the communication courses, doing the team building courses, I ultimately became the training manager. So that was my first fore way into leadership. And it was really based off of relationships that I had developed and my boss seeing that potential in me. And so it sounds like you've had a really nice progressive career. Um, was there any point in time where it just felt like you were stuck and,

and how did you get out of it? So it's interesting. The time that I spent at chop, I went through maybe four reorganizations just within the HR department. Um, any number, let me see one, two, three, four, five, five different leaders, right leaders. Um, and during that time, while I was very engaged in the person to person training space,

once I became a manager and we went through another one of those reorganizations where the vision of the instructor led training was going away, it was the beginning of trying to move more things online, um, really, um, whittling down targeted training to specific populations versus the professional development space that I really thrive in. I've really found myself going. I don't know if this is where I'm supposed to be.

Um, almost that same safe space that I felt when I was the bus driver, you know, going out, I don't know if this is my purpose in life. Um, right around that time though, I was blessed that an opportunity came up where my brand new boss, who was brought in to do leadership development and create a learning Institute was also tagged with,

um, leading our diversity and inclusion function. And I was, I was a training manager under her and she came to me and said, you know what, this really isn't my space. I'm not, I don't know what to do. So she started relying on me to do some of that diversity and inclusion work for, and it started off with our affirmative action plan.

Um, but then it grew out of that. And it ultimately, I got a choice between staying the training manager and moving and doing the diversity work. And that diversity space really felt more like home. To me, it felt like because of my background, because, you know, even when I worked at the insurance company, I was the certified diversity and inclusion trainer for the entire region.

So all of that seemed to be this work in progress that I couldn't see what the picture was going to ultimately be, but it was starting to get a little bit clearer for me. So that is how I moved into the diversity and inclusion space and became the manager of diversity. And I stayed there for another three years before I got my next opportunity,

my next promotion to become the director of diversity at Christiana care health system located in Delaware. Hmm. Okay. Okay. And why do you say, why do you stay in it? You mentioned it being a vocation for you. I stay in it because of the impact that I know I'm make on others, that this work makes on others. As I mentioned,

you know, I think about what would the value have been back in the nineties when that was that bus driver, trying to break out and move into that corporate space, but because no one had that vision of inclusion, no one had that vision of valuing differences. I was stuck being a bus driver and I had to leave the organization in order to move ahead versus having someone there who can ask the question,

well, wait a minute, what does she bring to the table? What are those transferable skills that, that insurance company saw that the transportation industry didn't see? You know, so I think about like those folks who need to be, need to have someone advocating around valuing their difference and helping organizations value that difference. I think at the end of the day,

that's really why I do this work. Yeah. Lending your voice, just like you are now, you're getting to this, maybe the acting stuff too. Right. And I think that's where the training part really resonated for me why it, while I was an instructor, the passion was there because I had, you know, and I used to joke with them all the time and say,

you're my captive audience. So, you know, and I got to engage and interact with people and build relationships. So when you think about it from a theater perspective, that's, what's happening that actor is building a relationship and interacting, so yes. So that spoke to that part of it. Yeah. So then, um, tell me about some of the proudest moments in the DNI space,

um, that you've had. I'm sorry. We can tell you that the proudest moments you've had in, in the DNI space and some of the accomplishments that you're proud of. Absolutely. So when I was at children's hospital of Philadelphia, I created the diversity and inclusion strategy. And from that, we were able to stand up for the first time three employee resource groups,

right? So the groups had existed as these ad hoc, if you will, groups that weren't necessarily connected to any particular department. Um, one group was a group of people that just had a passion and an advocacy for individuals with disabilities. Another group was an alumni group of participants from one of our, um, minority development programs. When again, they had graduated through the program and they were kind of like this alumni group that was just out there.

So we repurpose that and retooled it and created these employee resource groups. And the third group was our LGBT, our pride group that just through relationships, when I became the manager of diversity, I had people that because of my relationships who were out to me, some of them were out to the organization and some of them were not. We gotten together in a room and I said to them,

what are your needs? What is it that you want it? Because I was grounded enough to know that it wasn't about me. It was about them and what were the needs that they had. And from that, we, you know, we got together and we, we build out this framework and that's how we created the employee resource groups. So for me,

that was the beginning steps of seeing how empowering our employees can make such movement in the organization. Some of the work that those, um, employee resource groups, you know, even to this day, I'm still connected to some of the people that were members, even founding members, even people who have gone on have reached out to me, to thank me for giving them that voice for using my voice,

to amplify them. So the, that from the children hospital days, that's something that I was very proud of. Um, when I was at Christiana care again, developing those relationships and at Christiana care, I had an opportunity to impact college student high school students, college students, and medical students in their path to medicine. So as you mentioned earlier,

you know, you, you have to see it to be it. And I got plans to work with some phenomenal students who wanted to work in medicine, but either did not know how that pathway would look. So for the high school students, we would come in on Saturdays for 12 Saturdays out of the year, and they got to interact with other doctors,

other medical students, other residents, around cases that you might see in the emergency room. And I remember even after I left Christiana care, I ran into one of the students in a restaurant and they were like, Oh my gosh, they all have my cell phone number. So they would still text me and check in and knowing that it was interesting.

Cause I remember one student towards the end came up to me almost in tears and he was thanking me because he knew he would have never gotten this opportunity. Had we not had this program because the school that he came from was not resourced in a way that some other schools were, you know, they didn't grow up with, you know, somebody down the street being a doctor and then being able to have that conversation.

So that for me really in my heart and that carried over to, you know, I'm friends now with, I remember when they were in college and they're now in medical school through those relationships and building, I just, I attended over this summer, you know, the drive by congratulations for a young lady who I knew. And when she was in college,

she had this aspiration to go into medicine and connecting through our value Institute and our chair of medicine. She's a, she just started VCU medical school. Awesome. So those are the things that really mean a lot to me. Right. So, you know, I've heard, you mentioned relationship now more than once, that's clearly a really important skill set for your role.

Um, I'm seeing numerous postings for heads of DNI, you know, DNI directors, VPs, chief diversity officers, just, you know, it's, it's July, 2020, right. That when we're recording this, um, so I suspect there's probably not enough of you to go around. And so there's going to be people thinking, do I go from leadership development into DNI,

right. They're going to be career pathing into the DNI field. And as I study it, it just seems like it's, um, an enormous role for somebody who, um, has changed management skills, the relationship skills, what else should we be? People be thinking about if they want a career path into DNI and how do they keep up? It's it's enormous.

Right? So the good thing is the reason if you truly care, the resources are out there. There are some phenomenal organizations that provide the tools. So when I first moved into an official role in diversity and inclusion, I went through Cornell's diversity management program. So because I say that because the scary part around where we are today is that because of current environments,

there are a lot of organizations to your point that are jumping out there and saying, Oh, we need somebody for DNI. And they're either tagging, you know, someone in their organization to say, Oh, okay, well you're a woman or you're from an underrepresented minority position and automatically thinking tag, you're it. And you can do this work and it's not necessarily the case.

Um, so there's getting that grounding and understanding the language, understanding how intersectionality works, understanding, um, how unconscious bias works and how that plays out from a systemic perspective, to your point, that change management piece is important because different organizations will have a different cadence and will have a different capacity for doing this work. And it touches everything from recruiting To selection.

I mean, it's just, it touches every piece of the employee life cycle, Right. And actually, and actually beyond the important the employee life cycle. So that's the piece that I think, you know, anybody who's interested in doing this diversity and inclusion work, any organization that is looking towards this, it's recognizing the full span of what this work is.

This is like a three legged stool. So there's the workforce is how do you either bring in or build up your workforce, but then it's the workplace. What is the environment that you're bringing them into? Is it an environment of trust? Is it an environment where they feel that they belong? Is it an inclusive environment, but then third are, is really outside of your walls,

whatever your walls might be. So for us as a hospital, it's out in the communities, it's the patients that we serve. It's looking at things like health equity, it's our corporate social responsibility. It's our supplier diversity. It's all of those things that connect us to the community. If you're a for profit, it's your customers, it's your other business partners.

It's what is that connection outside of your walls? And I think sometimes we miss that because diversity and inclusion tends to, if it lives in HR, it tends to have that lens that it's only an HR function without recognizing the stole is going to be tilted because you're missing a whole nother leg. Right. Right. And so every part of the business,

which is amazing. So, so often there's only one person in that department, if, if even one, right, exactly. I mean, I suppose in a way, if you think about it someday, if, um, there's no need for the role, then we've done our jobs. Right. And here's the thing because we're ever evolving because we're ever changing,

this is a journey the same way, you know, you don't, you don't not need the finance person once you balance your budget. That's true. There's always going to be a need, you know, that finance oversight. Right. But the same thing with diversity inclusion, because the definition and how we look at the diversity is always evolving. Our,

you know, our populations are always evolving. So there's always going to be that need to look at how does that difference show up in the workplace. And because of that change, how, how do we have to adapt in order to meet those differences in order to bridge the gaps and those differences. Right. You know, um, it's, it seems like a daunting task because when you start to study diversity inclusion,

equity, and belonging, it's just, um, you know, permeates everything. So if you have a bad culture to begin with, right hard just to fix this piece, cause it's the culture. Um, if you don't have a good performance management system, if you don't have, you know, a fair and equitable compensation plan, I mean, there's this,

it's almost like you have to be master of almost everything, you know, all the functional HR areas to make sure that you're able to influence the results. And you know what, for me, I don't try to wear that magic Harry Potter cake. Okay. Where I, where I think I function, well, isn't asking the question, have we looked at this?

We have the subject matter experts and compensation. My role is to widen their lens. One of our leaders use this phrase and I love it. And I told him I was going to steal it, but I'll give him credit for it. We have to widen that aperture of how we're looking at anything. So from a compensation, you know, you mentioned compensation.

So let's use that as an example, our compensation team is very focused on the dollars in the sense, what I help them do is take a step back and look at what could be the disparities that have been, if from a gender perspective, the males we bring in are better skilled at negotiating their salaries, because we know from a gender perspective, men will be more assertive in demanding what they think there were.

Whereas women may tend to be more thankful and, and be more willing to accept that first offer. So if compensation, isn't looking at that because that's not really their lens, their, their lenses, here's the salary. They don't necessarily have the lens to know what's taking place from the recruiting on certain, because that's really where the negotiation is taking place.

So my skillset is seeing all of the moving pieces and being able to say, Hey, have we considered how this might be impacting equity from a compensation perspective? So I don't need to know the probating and the marketing and you know, the market analysis and all of that. That's what they need to know when I need to be able to do is step into the conversation and say,

we need to take a level up and look at this and look at how this might be adversely impacting. That's great. So what advice would you have for somebody who is looking at a diversity role, um, and what kind of characteristics should they be looking for in a company? Um, so I'll give you an example. When I used to be in the executive search field,

we used to say, you know what? We don't care how tough the assignment is. As long as the client's coachable, we'll take the work, right? So had everything to do with how coachable the client was because we could, we can fix it. We can, everything's fixable. If you have a client that's coachable, what are the things that you think,

you know, they need to look for in an organization to ensure that they will have some success. So if you're, if you're interested in going into a diversity and inclusion and different organizations have different names behind it, diversity and inclusion, equity, belonging, leadership role, find out where the accountability lies, get an understanding of how committed your CEO, how committed your board members are towards this work.

Because where that accountability rests is what will help you move the needle? Um, find out what is the support structure? How supported are you going to be from a resourcing perspective? What are some of the drivers? If an organization did not previously have a diversity equity and inclusion and belonging function, what is now driving them towards that? What prohibited prohibited them from having that function previously,

find out how active a role you will have, what seat at, what tables will you be invited to and feel like you belong. So, you know, it's one thing to say, you know, from an optics perspective, we have a chief diversity officer now check versus are you at the table? Are you able to engage with other functional leaders?

What does that reporting structure look like? So my, no, this isn't, no, this is an HR forum. If you're in HR, who are your HR partners? If you're not in HR, who are your HR partners, who are your other business partners and what are, what's going to be that relationship? And I think those are those for me are the driving questions that really speak to how successful you're going to be,

or how frustrated you're going to be, or how much of an uphill climb the word is going to be because the work is not easy. I tell people all the time, this is not for the faint of heart. You were having discussions that people either have never had before. They're not comfortable having their hard conversations and you're having them at all different layers of the organization.

You're having it with frontline staff all the way up through senior leadership. And you've gotta be able to be self aware to actually know where you stand around diversity and inclusion topics. You know, what are those issues that you might be bringing a bias to? And you've got to be able to be an advocate across all differences. You can't pick and choose which difference it is or going to be the ones that you pay attention to.

Okay. That's great. Last question. Um, what advice do you have for young leaders on how to build relationships? Cause clearly that has benefited your career. Um, how do you, how do you build relationships that, uh, that last, I will say for me being authentic, being authentic in recognizing where my gaps were, I will ask the question around,

tell me what I don't know. I don't try to come in as the all, knowing all, seeing, you know, orb of wisdom, but I, you know, when people know that I'm coming from a place of learning and a place of sharing and a place of, um, good intention that makes it that much easier to have some of those difficult conversations and being able to be authentic in how I,

how I approach it. I know we've gone through, you know, the season, uh, you know, just less than two months ago, the murder of George Floyd, I had to be authentic and who Dana Beckton was in order to be able to serve my organization. And in me being authentic that gave space for other people to then open up and be able to be their authentic self,

which has now developed, you know, people reaching out to me and connecting with me saying, I'm so glad you're here. How can I help you? How can I partner with you to do this work? And I think that's what people are looking for that authentic leader. That's great. I'm just curious. What was that? How did you, what was the authentic part?

Did you show your hurt your so I, I did two things. I, I created a memo for leaders and sent out a memo around here is how our team members may be feeling right now. Here's what they need from you as a leader, because I knew it was what I needed for myself. Really my impetus to send this letter out, came from one of my colleagues the day after the murder,

calling me at night, just saying, Hey, I just want to check on you. How are you doing? And that got my will. Cause I didn't realize how much I needed that call. Right, right. And that spurred me to say, if I needed that call, who else needs that call that chicken. So that really started this conversation because remember you don't talk about work.

You don't talk about race in the workplace, right. This started that conversation and I credit, um, and this isn't meant to be a plug. So if you have to edit it out, I'm giving you enough space to be able to cut it. But Mary Francis Winners, um, CHRO wrote a book maybe four years ago called we can't talk about that at work.

And it's really around, how do we create the space to have discussions about race, about religion, about those things that are very much a part of people's DNA and how to do that in a safe, respectful way. Yeah. So go ahead. Say I was just going to ask you about a book, but so beat me to it. Yes.

So that book really is found is foundational in giving you a roadmap on how to approach those conversations, um, and how to be authentic in the moment to have those conversations. So be transitioned from that leadership memo that went out. And what I offered up were a safe space conversations where we would get on a platform like zoom, WebEx, and it was open.

So anyone could join in. And I had a preset, um, presentation that went through number one, understanding the historical context of race and, and going through the, um, intercultural continuum of how you can be either monocultural or intercultural. And what does that look like? And, and talking about the problem of being when you're minimizing culture, you know,

where that whole phrase of, I don't see color because what we found, there were some people who participated, who just needed a space to be heard to, to, to know that they weren't alone in how they were feeling. And then we had others who joined because they knew that they had colleagues who needed support, but they didn't have the language to be able to do that.

That's right. Right. Exactly. And I'll be honest with you. Cindy when I did the first session, I figured maybe if we were lucky, 50 people might log in, you guys have 55, right. We had 173 people log in that first session. We ended up doing about five sessions and had over 700 people participate in those sessions. It's amazing.

It blew me away. It blew me away. And when you ask about like, what am I proud of being able to provide that space for people who really needed it was very affirming for me. I love that. And watching, watching the dialogue that happened between people. So we had an open chat going the entire time and people were posing questions to each other and they were piggybacking off of statements that other people were making.

And it was all done respectfully. Cause at first seem that you're a little alert leery around that open chat because you don't know what someone's going to say, but it was all done from a place of trust, openness and authenticity. We set ground rules at the beginning and people just really dove into it. So now we're, we're building out. What does the next next series of that look like?

We had that foundational session. Um, we had some people, um, you asked about books. I mentioned, um, the book white fragility by Robin de Angelo, right? Yeah. And our team members jumped on it and say, can you facilitate a book club with that? So that's going to be one of the next ones we do where we're going to sign and say,

here's the book, here's the date. We're going to talk about it. And what I love is she actually has a facilitation guide that you can use to go alongside of that book. So those are some of the examples of, you know, where we organically took off from that transparent, authentic moment to now we're putting stuff in place that really meets the needs of all of our team members.

It really is an exciting time there's change happening. And, uh, you know, as painful as the last couple of months have been, um, it's, uh, it's creating, you know, awareness. And, uh, just like you said, you thought 50 People show up and you had over 700. I mean, that is amazing for any topic,

you know, I mean even if to get anybody to show up and be engaged. Right, exactly. Exactly. We're going to have to do a followup on how, how things turned out. Um, gosh, Dana, thank you so much for your generosity and your servant leadership and sharing your background to inspire others, um, in their climb. And,

uh, can people link in with you? Can we post your LinkedIn profile? Absolutely. Absolutely. More than welcome it all. Good. Well, we hope we'll see you at the big HR event as well on absolutely will. Yep. Where we've got a Baratunde Thurston is our keynote and a bunch of other great mentors. So, um,

we will catch up with you very soon and, uh, we'll do a follow up for sure. There's probably three other topics I want to interview you about now. No worries. No worries. Thank you again. Um, the lineup looks great, so I can't wait. Um, and this is hard work for me. So this is, you know,

this, this is purpose work, so I appreciate the opportunity to share my story. All right. Thanks Dana. Thank you. Have a good one.

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